Dimitrovgrad Russia, May 16, 2006
Genesis / Creation Seminar
Part III - Evidence Supporting Evolution and Did Dinosaurs Live With Man?

Yesterday we were talking about two questions: Where did the universe come from? Where did I, or you, come from?

We saw there are only two possibilities, which we called creationism and evolutionism.

Creationism means that in the beginning everything was created by God. God created everything in six 24 hour days about 6,000 years ago. Then the two original people, Adam and Eve disobeyed God and that brought death and disease into the world. About 4,500 years ago, because of all the evil in the world, there was a world-wide flood that wiped out everything, except Noah, his family and the animals he had brought onto a large boat called an ark.

Evolutionism means that everything came about by chance, plus long periods of time, plus natural processes. It means that billions of years ago all the matter in the universe was compressed into a small dot that was spinning very fast and then it exploded. There was a tremendous big bang. Over billions of years as the gases cooled the objects in the universe were formed, including our solar system. Evolutionism also teaches that life started in the oceans and eventually man evolved from the animals by a long series of slow, gradual processes.

Yesterday we saw that we all have the same facts. We have the same science. The same biology. The same geology. The same fossils. There is no disagreement about the facts. Where there is a disagreement is on the interpretation of the facts.

To illustrate how we have biases, yesterday I showed a picture that, when looked at it one way, you saw an old lady. When you looked at it another way, you saw a young princess. Depending on whether the black bar was on the top or the bottom, you had a different opinion concerning what that picture was showing.

Here is a different picture. Is this a picture of an old lady or a young lady?

This picture can be looked at two ways. Those of you who think it is a young lady have a bias toward seeing a young lady. Those of you who see an old lady have a bias toward seeing an old lady. We are all looking at the same picture, but we are seeing two different pictures because we all have a bias. Whatever subject we are discussing, we all have a starting point with which we start our thinking.

When it comes to the questions we are talking about, the question of origins, some of us start our thinking based on the Bible and creationism. Others of us start our thinking based on evolutionism. What we are now doing is looking at these two possibilities, creationism and evolutionism, and seeing which one best matches reality.

Let's start this evening by looking at some of the evidence that has been used to support evolutionism. These are things I learned in school and they are still taught today in American textbooks. Probably the two best known are Haeckel's drawings of embryos and the peppered moth studies done in England. We'll take a look at these and ask the question we started asking yesterday, do they agree with reality?

In 1866, a German biologist, philosopher and university professor, Ernst Haeckel claimed that all classes of vertebrate life pass through similar embryonic stages. He stated that, as an embryo, humans also go through the stages that composed their evolutionary history-- that if we evolved from a fish that evolved into a reptile that evolved into us, our embryos physically echo that history, passing through a fish-like stage and then into a reptile-like stage. To illustrate this, he published drawings of embryos of various species -- human, rabbit, calf, hog, chick, tortoise, salamander and fish. He stated that evolutionary progress could be seen in these embryos because the early stages of embryonic development is nearly identical for these classes of animals. Haeckel argued that this was evidence that showed our common evolutionary roots.

The problem with these drawings is that Haeckel created faked drawings to try to get his students to believe in evolution. Within 20 years Haeckel's drawings were recognized by the academic community as being faked and he was censured by his peers. Yet these drawings have continued to be included in textbooks as evidence supporting evolution even today.

In 2000, Harvard University professor, and America's premier evolutionist biologist, Stephen Jay Gould commented on the continued use of Haeckel's embryo drawings in textbooks. He wrote: "We do, I think, have the right to be both astonished and ashamed by the century of mindless recycling that has led to the persistence of these drawings in a large number, if not a majority, of modern textbooks."

Another well known study that was done to support evolution is the Peppered moth study. It was originally conducted in the 1850's in England by Bernard Kettlewell and the research has been carried on until recently by several others. Kettlewell noticed Peppered moths come in light color varieties and dark color varieties. Originally the trees had lichen on them that caused the bark to be light colored. Thus dark color moths would stand out and be easy prey for birds. But when the industrial revolution started the pollution made all the trees black. Now the light color moths were easy to see and thus easy prey for birds. Since then pollution control equipment was installed and the bark is light colored again. The conclusion was that as the color of the bark on the trees changed, the moths evolved, as a response to predators, to have a color that matched the trees.

But what we are seeing in Pepper moths is not evolution, but adaptation. Evolution would mean new kinds of life had evolved from the moths. However, no new life was seen. They were still the same kinds of moths. In fact, there were always two types of moths, light color and dark colored. That never changed.

Creationism says that life can change--for example we have many types of dogs--or moths--but one kind of life does not evolve into another.

But there is more to the Peppered moth study. Since 1980 it has been clear that peppered moths do not normally rest on tree trunks To do the experiments and take the pictures used in textbooks--pictures such as those you see here--the moths had to be glued or pinned to trees.

A study done by K. Mikkola observed that "the normal resting place of the Peppered Moth is beneath small, more or less horizontal branches (but not on narrow twigs), probably high up in the canopies, and the species probably only exceptionally rests on tree trunks."

It seems this example of natural selection is actually an example of unnatural selection.

Another well known study used as evidence to support evolutionism is the Miller-Urey experiment.

In the Miller-Urey experiment Miller took a mixture of ammonia, hydrogen, methane, and water vapor and put them into a closed system. He then added energy in the form of sparks. The result was that, over a period of time, a small amount of amino acids were produced. This has been taken as proving that life can be created in a laboratory.

Although widely heralded for decades as 'proving' that life originated on the early earth entirely under natural conditions, we now realize this experiment actually provided compelling evidence for the opposite conclusion.
First this experiment shows that a process which produces amino acids must be designed by intelligent scientists. The results had nothing at all to do with chance or the random processes on which evolutionism is based.
Another problem is that Miller/Urey had to have a hydrogen-rich atmosphere for their experiment. However, for almost 30 years, scientists involved in this field of research have concluded that the early atmosphere of Earth was quite different from this. Had oxygen been present in the mixture of gases in the experiment, the amino acids would not have formed. This point is extremely important because the evidence from geology indicates that the earth's atmosphere has always contained oxygen.

Another problem is that although the experiment produced amino acids, they were 50% left handed and 50% right handed. As we learned yesterday, life is made from 100% left-handed amino acids.

Still another problem is that for the experiment to work the amino acids had to be removed from the experiment as soon as they were formed. Had they been left in the apparatus, then they would have been destroyed by the same electrical discharge that caused them to be synthesized.

Plus still another problem is that the experiment produced a toxic chemical mixture that is poisonous to all life.

It seems that the only result of this experiment was to show that intelligent life (the scientists) could design an apparatus that would create the circumstances of death.

When all the scientific evidence is examined, it turns out that all the evidence used to prove evolutionism, is wrong. There is no evidence that supports the theory of evolutionism. Dr. Kent Hovind offers a $250,000 prize to anyone who can come up with empirical, scientific proof of evolution. He has offered this prize since 1990. But no one has been able to produce evidence supporting evolution that withstands honest scientific examination.
We can look at the fossil record, which is reality, and it tells us the truth. It shows a sudden burst of life and then no change--exactly the way the Bible describes things as happening. Our creator does not lie to us.
Last night I promised that tonight would talk about the Bible's claim that dinosaurs and man lived together.

The Bible says that God used six, normal 24 hours days to create the universe and everything in it, including us. It tells us that He made the land animals on day six of creation. Here's what the Bible says in Genesis chapter 1 verses 24 and 25.

"Then God said, 'Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind;' and it was so. God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good."

This describes all the land animals. Is a dinosaur a land animal? Yes. So according to the Bible God must have created the dinosaurs on day six of creation. The Bible says that mankind and dinosaurs lived together, but then there was world wide flood that wiped out all land based life, except those that were on Noah's ark.

This is an idea that is strongly opposed by evolutionism, which says that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago and that they died out as a result of an unusually massive extinction at the end of the Cretaceous era about 15 million years ago. There is speculation that the cause of the mass extinction might have been a giant meteorite or asteroid that hit the earth, but there is no hard scientific evidence supporting this.

Let's look at each of these possibilities - dinosaurs living with man starting 6,000 years ago and dinosaurs dying out millions of years before man evolved… and ask the question, does it agree with reality?

If the Bible is true, that man and dinosaurs lived together, and a catastrophic world wide flood wiped out almost all land-based life on earth, what would we expect to see? I think we'd find billions of dead things, buried in rock layers, laid down by water all over the earth. What do we actually see? Billions of dead things, buried in rock layers, laid down by water all over the earth.

Let's take a look at the evidence. If dinosaurs lived on the earth fairly recently, we should find evidence of this.

In 1990 a Tyranosaurous Rex skeleton was found in the U.S. and was being moved to Montana State University. One of the leg bones had to be moved by helicopter, and to reduce the weight it was cut into two pieces. The bone was still largely hollow and not filled up with minerals as is usual. Scientists used chemicals to dissolve the bony matrix, revealing the soft tissue still present. Inside they discovered the remains of red blood cells--something that should be impossible if the bone was millions of years old.

What normally happens to soft tissue inside bones? It is quickly eaten by bacteria. Bone can last. Soft tissue can not.

Previously no one had bothered to look for red blood cells, or any type of organic material in dinosaur bones because everyone knew they were millions of years old and organic material could not survive that long.

Since that initial discovery Montana State University scientist Dr. Mary Schweitzer has started investigating the contents of dinosaur bones and soft tissue has been found in several other dinosaurs. Not only have more blood cells been found, but also soft, fibrous tissue, and complete blood vessels that are still flexible. Even under ideal conditions it is impossible for organic material to be preserved, such that it is still soft and flexible, for millions of years.

Let's take a look at some pictures:

Here you can see transparent, flexible, hollow blood vessels, in particular in the picture in the lower left. Some contain small round microstructures that have cell-like form and structure. These structures are comparable to those in modern ostriches. In addition, nucleated red blood cells can be seen within the blood vessels. This is similar to what we see in reptile and bird red blood cells, whereas mammalian red blood cells lose their nuclei prior to entering circulation.

No one claims this soft tissue and blood is from a dinosaur that was killed recently, but it is obvious that these dinosaur bones are not millions of years old.

A question that comes to my mind is: if dinosaurs and man lived together we should find some direct evidence. For example, we have a lot of dinosaur bones and tracks, shouldn't we also find fossilized human bones and tracks?

The answer is, yes we do. For example, human bones are found in Carboniferous coal deposits that are dated at more than 300 million years old. Over 4,000 fossilized human remains have been found. The example I showed yesterday was one of ten skeletons that looked exactly like modern humans that were excavated from fifty eight feet down in the Dakota Sandstone, over an area spanning about 17 meters by 30 meters. This formation is dated at supposedly 140 million years old. It is known for the large number of dinosaurs it contains. At least four of the ten individuals are female. One is an infant. Some of the bones are articulated. Some are not, indicating the bodies were washed into place. No obvious tools or artifacts were found associated with the bones. These appear to be deaths resulting from flooding.

This petrified human finger was found in Cretaceous limestone, which dates from 65n to 115 million years old. It is broken off just short of the middle joint. It is 7.6 cm long. If we had the full length, it would be about six inches long. Human hair and a human child's tooth have also been found in excavations of this same limestone. This fossil has been examined with both a CAT Scan and an MRI. The lower image shows the CAT scan which reveals the interior of bones in the finger. The MRI revealed joints and fossilized tendons throughout the length of the fossil.

There have been many human footprints found that are contemporary with dinosaurs. This picture shows a human footprint taken from near Glen Rose Texas. It exceeds 45 cm in length. The cross-sectional cuts you see in the footprint were made to perform compression studies. These studies revealed that this was a woman's footprint. Estimates indicate she was approximately 305 cm and weighted about 454 kg. By the way, the Bible describes early people as being giants compared to us today.

Several layers of human prints with dinosaur prints have been excavated in Dinosaur Park. According to Dr. Carl Baugh, the archeologist who coordinated the excavations, these layers were laid down during the first few days of Noah's flood when water levels were low enough to allow daily tidal changes that formed layers of mud. Each high tide brought in a new layer of mud in which new footprints could be preserved. As people, dinosaurs and animals were fleeing to seek higher ground they left footprints. The upper layer, which is sediment that probably was laid down after the water level rose above this level, has no footprints of any kind.

This is a picture of human tracks crossing the tracks of a dinosaur. These tracks, also in Texas, were revealed in the rock of a river bed during a drought when the water was unusually low. The man in this picture is walking in the human tracks.

We can see that the human tracks that are contemporary with dinosaur tracks were made by people, not apes. The large toe on primates, such as apes and monkeys, is located close to the heel to facilitate clinging to branches. The tracks I've been showing you have the human arrangement of toes, with all the toes across the front of the foot. Human tracks that are contemporary with dinosaur tracks have been found all over the world.
From the evidence we can see with our own eyes, humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time, just as the Bible says.

Let's turn from the fossil evidence and look at evidence people leave behind. People like to draw pictures of what they see and incorporate the natural world around them into their art. Dinosaurs are shown in ancient art around the world.

Magnificent jungle temples in Cambodia were built by the Khmer civilization, beginning as early as the eighth and extending through the fourteenth century A.D.

These temples were rediscovered by Portuguese explorers and Catholic missionaries in the 16th century and many were restored in 19th and 20th centuries. Ta Prohm, one of the most picturesque, was left in its natural state. It was never restored. Ta Prohm is filled with stone statues and relief carvings. Almost every square inch of the temple is covered with ornate carvings. Hundreds of decorative stone circles surround familiar animals they saw every day, such as monkeys, deer, water buffalo, parrots and as we see here a Stegosaurus--a dinosaur.

Remember, these carvings were made hundreds of years before dinosaur fossils were discovered and we learned what dinosaurs looked like. Even if these ancient people had found a fossilized dinosaur bone, they had no way to reconstruct what the dinosaur looked like. The only way they could create such an accurate carving of a Stegosaurus would be if they actually saw a living Stegosaurus.

Scientific examination of the stone reliefs show they have not been tampered with or modified. These are the original stone carvings.
Some say that this was a creature from Cambodian mythology. However, that does not make sense. Why would they show a series of real animals, and include one in that series that was mythological? And if it was mythological, how did it come out looking exactly like a real dinosaur--a Stegosaurus?

A people called the Anasazi lived in the American Southwest from approximately A.D. 400 to A.D. 1300. They left behind their homes which were built high up on cliffs, and they left drawings on the rocks. Some of these drawings show dinosaurs, such as this one. Because of weathering it is difficult to see the drawings. Here you can see a man. A dinosaur that looks like a Brak-key-oh-saurous is circled right here. You can see his long neck, body and a large tail. In addition to these drawings, they are surrounded by drawings of a deer, a wolf and other animals the Anasazi saw every day.

Let's go to Peru. The Pachachuti people lived in Peru from 500 to1500 AD. The Pachachuti liked to carve stones which they placed in their tombs. This carved stone found in the Kingdom of Chperu-tomb shows a man being attacked by two dinosaurs.

Here is another one showing a man riding a dinosaur. There are thousands of carved stones and almost one third show specific types of dinosaurs including Triceratops, Stegosaurus and Pterosaurs. Some dinosaurs appear to have been domesticated, others definitely were not domesticated.

Keep in mind that "modern" man's conception of dinosaurs did not begin until the 1800's when the word dinosaur was coined (1841). These stones do not depict skeletons but live, active dinosaurs, most of whom are seen interacting with man. The obvious implication is that ancient Peruvians saw and lived with dinosaurs.

The tombs in the deserts of Peru often preserve amazing artifacts which are very old, including the beautiful, intricate textiles of the Nasca culture from about 700 A.D.

Some of their textiles depict living dinosaurs as do their ceremonial burial stones and pottery, again indicating that dinosaurs were still alive at the time and the ancient Peruvians saw them.

Part I - Introduction, Creationism & Evolutionism
Part II - The Scientific Facts
Part III - Evidence Support Evolution & Dinosaurs Lived With Man?
Part IV - Dinosaurs In The Bible & Radioisotope Dating